tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post8117433912016399967..comments2024-02-28T22:03:57.237-05:00Comments on The Automatic Earth: Debt Rattle, December 12 2008: 12 Days Till ChristmasIlargihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09698428009501267664noreply@blogger.comBlogger99125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-72321587280340462692008-12-14T01:38:00.000-05:002008-12-14T01:38:00.000-05:00Jon: My middle finger is firmly extended in your ...Jon: My middle finger is firmly extended in your direction.<BR/><BR/>You continue to misunderstand one very important thing: THE ENTIRE DAMN SYSTEM IS _GONE_.<BR/><BR/>ALL OF IT.<BR/><BR/>That clear enough to you? They can throw $100,000,000,000,000 down this crap-hole, and it won't save a damned thing.<BR/><BR/>Fine. Believe "it can't happen here". But you better be right, or be armed. Starcadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09226367306835781483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-32881243830800148312008-12-13T14:14:00.000-05:002008-12-13T14:14:00.000-05:00@Starcade: Thanks for that. More childish fantasiz...@Starcade: Thanks for that. More childish fantasizing, ungrounded in any real experience in the world. You desperately need to step away from the video games and get acquainted with reality, but I can see now that you will not under any circumstances (circumstances, for example, such as events proving you riculously wrong, time and time again) allow anything to interfere with your dark visions, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-35396806360232386092008-12-13T14:00:00.000-05:002008-12-13T14:00:00.000-05:00Michael @ Oncoming Train said...I'll make one last...Michael @ Oncoming Train said...<BR/><BR/><I>I'll make one last attempt to bring this back to sanity.</I><BR/><BR/>Me too. But I’m not holding my breath.<BR/><BR/><I>Illargi compared economic systems to natural systems. While I think they are analogous, the correspondence is not 1 to 1. Comparing credit to gravity is, as far as I'm concerned, silly.</I><BR/><BR/>I’d agree totally. Because gravitygoritsashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09767556060065779629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-28125503599599802882008-12-13T13:52:00.000-05:002008-12-13T13:52:00.000-05:00The physical existence of credit: Our population....The physical existence of credit: Our population.<BR/><BR/>Seriously.<BR/><BR/>The only reason we can have six billion people in the world right now is the ready existence of massive credit.<BR/><BR/>There are far better minds than mine on the subject, but it is clear that the life expectancy of a person is almost a direct correlation to the amount of resources his or her society has at their Starcadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09226367306835781483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-91893393342486900942008-12-13T13:13:00.000-05:002008-12-13T13:13:00.000-05:00Goritsas said"What utter bollocks. Where does huma...<I>Goritsas said<BR/><BR/>"What utter bollocks. Where does human thought and human interaction emanate, if they’re not grounded in the physical universe? If “human thought and human interaction” are not part of the universe, then by definition, they do exist separate from the physical world. How else would you describe this?</I><BR/><BR/>I'll make one last attempt to bring this back to sanity.<BRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-87903193798102878442008-12-13T12:50:00.000-05:002008-12-13T12:50:00.000-05:00Bluebird asks"So how far should we anticipate the ...<I>Bluebird asks<BR/><BR/>"So how far should we anticipate the lack of services? Lack of power indicates no lights, no computers. No gas stations to pump gas, no banks to get out money."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I'm assuming a that services will become unreliable, grocery store shelves will be come mostly empty, and that I'll have to depend my resources on hand for some period of time.<BR/><BR/>I don'tAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-7571789494994305232008-12-13T11:44:00.000-05:002008-12-13T11:44:00.000-05:00Michael @ Oncoming Train said...Show me the physic...Michael @ Oncoming Train said...<BR/><BR/><I>Show me the physical existence of credit. Show me how it exists, or can exists separate from human society, and human beings. Point me to some aspect of credit where you can say 'this will endure long after humans are gone'. </I><BR/><BR/>Dude, I’ve already pointed put elsewhere where this concept is false. Just because you can’t keep up doesn’t mean goritsashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09767556060065779629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-72374024421877423102008-12-13T11:37:00.000-05:002008-12-13T11:37:00.000-05:00Bluebird- alas, the old, tested, wisdom- from expe...Bluebird- alas, the old, tested, wisdom- from experience- is not that hard to access. We've just been pretending it's a Leave It To Beaver world; all this time.<BR/><BR/>http://www.ladyday.net/song/song71.html<BR/><BR/>Mama may have, Papa may have<BR/>But God bless the child that's got his own<BR/><BR/>Which includes stuff like- food- water- shelter- heat- power.Greenpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-48914312296544461782008-12-13T11:28:00.000-05:002008-12-13T11:28:00.000-05:00@Starcade: So to summarize, your answer is no, i.e...@Starcade: So to summarize, your answer is no, i.e., you are unwilling to make any firm predictions that might be disproven. That might be a good sign, actually -- it might mean that you still have enough of your senses to realize that firm predictions would end up making you look ridiculous, as your prediction that we wouldn't have elections last November (“Over. Done. Everything. This election Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-7330752033012537922008-12-13T10:29:00.000-05:002008-12-13T10:29:00.000-05:00@ Greg & Bluebird:Yes, a total collapse of bot...@ Greg & Bluebird:<BR/><BR/>Yes, a total collapse of both the financial system and the services that we have come to rely upon.<BR/><BR/>As for finances, the math is pretty straightforward. Banks for decades have "created" money AS debt based upon the borrowers promise to repay the debt + interest. So now we have a QUADRIILION dollar edifice of debt, and no one can pay off their Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-23387298696601165242008-12-13T10:14:00.000-05:002008-12-13T10:14:00.000-05:00So how far should we anticipate the lack of servic...So how far should we anticipate the lack of services? Lack of power indicates no lights, no computers. No gas stations to pump gas, no banks to get out money.<BR/><BR/>Will banks continue accept electronic banking for automatic deposits or automatic payments? Or all payments to everyone in cash? no checks? (obviously no credit cards). <BR/><BR/>What if my water company or electric company is bluebirdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09600634086150466162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-67747113169764219932008-12-13T10:01:00.000-05:002008-12-13T10:01:00.000-05:00On Greer's collapse modelYou have to remember that...On Greer's collapse model<BR/><BR/>You have to remember that 'Catabolic Collapse' seems slow from the point of view of history not necessarily form someone who is there at the time.<BR/><BR/>If you're in it when a descent from one level of complexity to a lower level is made it's not pretty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-56923569718040740112008-12-13T09:54:00.000-05:002008-12-13T09:54:00.000-05:00A system that is over optimized is very efficient,...A system that is over optimized is very efficient, think walmart with it's Just-In-Time delivery systems but can fail easily. <BR/><BR/>Or as Nicholas Nassim Taleb put it, better to have a 100 small banks than 10 large behemoths. If one small bank goes down, thats fine. If 1 behemoth goes down, it takes the rest down!<BR/><BR/>The scenario you have described with the power outages would not have Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-40021217677420709522008-12-13T09:53:00.000-05:002008-12-13T09:53:00.000-05:00Ilargi said..."The hurt this time will be unlike a...Ilargi said...<BR/>"The hurt this time will be unlike any other previous collapse, because the leveraged gambling debts of the players are so astronomical, and because the players are still in power and capable of transferring their debts to the public purse. The people who hold power are the ones who want to restore the system, since they benefit most from it, and they hold all the cards. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-6307503835795092102008-12-13T09:39:00.000-05:002008-12-13T09:39:00.000-05:00@ ANON RE: "...the world isn't coming to an end......@ ANON RE: "...the world isn't coming to an end..." <BR/><BR/>Agreed. But our understanding of what consitutes our world is ending. Just take electricity alone. Here in VT we just had a little ice storm. You'd thin in New England we'd be prepared. Nope. A million w/out power, some will lack power for days, maybe a week. Emergency shelters at schools all over NH and VT. Schools cannot open. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-50381075345967905422008-12-13T09:29:00.000-05:002008-12-13T09:29:00.000-05:00@ EBrown and TTMMGood points. As for IV's and grav...@ EBrown and TTMM<BR/><BR/>Good points. <BR/><BR/>As for IV's and gravity...true, but only to a point. With IV antibiotics, gammaglob. etc. the dosing can be variable and may, in fact, demand regulation vis a pump.<BR/><BR/>TTMM...RE: shipping. YES, shipping is cheap, but only RELATIVELY. And in this case, with no short-term commercial paper availability, and with ship owners UNWILLING to "sat Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-10813004574351545042008-12-13T09:22:00.000-05:002008-12-13T09:22:00.000-05:00Hi MichaelThank you for your responses. Nice to se...Hi Michael<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your responses. Nice to see a rational, calm and factual response (Facts as you see and interpret them I might add)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-83956153415706417802008-12-13T09:11:00.000-05:002008-12-13T09:11:00.000-05:00Goritsas said"Now, they could take the bull by the...<I>Goritsas said<BR/><BR/>"Now, they could take the bull by the horns and re-enter those closed and about to be closed factories and take them over and start producing the kinds of products that need to be produced, rolling stock, barges, light rail. Will they? Never in a million years."</I><BR/><BR/>And it's not limitations based on the physical world that prevent us from doing this, it's Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-45357965329343624212008-12-13T09:03:00.000-05:002008-12-13T09:03:00.000-05:00Starcade Said"I will leave you with one question: ...<I>Starcade Said<BR/><BR/>"I will leave you with one question: Do you really believe that, when TSHTF and people find out they will no longer have their video games or computers or televisions or enough food to be comfortable or a roof over their head or anything resembling "freedom", that they'll take it quietly?"</I><BR/><BR/>I think people will react in many different ways.<BR/><BR/>By your Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-42500582921047110752008-12-13T08:54:00.000-05:002008-12-13T08:54:00.000-05:00Goritsas Said"To the physical universe deniers,You...<I>Goritsas Said<BR/><BR/>"To the physical universe deniers,<BR/><BR/>You people are unbelievably stupid. We live in a physical universe. We are dependent upon this physical universe for our existence. So, in what way, are human societies not a product of this physical universe?<BR/><BR/>Are you people so utterly stupid as to believe the workings of human society somehow exist outside the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-4222248894978314382008-12-13T08:43:00.000-05:002008-12-13T08:43:00.000-05:00Hi IllargiWhat sort of collapse are we talking abo...Hi Illargi<BR/><BR/>What sort of collapse are we talking about here?<BR/><BR/>1) Jay Hanson style die-off in a nuclear orgy of violence? (most violent)<BR/><BR/>2) What guilder glider (have I got the name right?) suggests, a population descent over 75 years to about 1 billion in 2083? (In between scenario)<BR/><BR/>3) Or millions unemployed and barely making do, a few million deaths. A couple of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-53329642597705366832008-12-13T08:37:00.000-05:002008-12-13T08:37:00.000-05:00-Are you people so utterly stupid as to believe th...-Are you people so utterly stupid as to believe the workings of human society somehow exist outside the physical universe? Where then, exactly, does this part of our existence actually take place?<BR/><BR/><BR/>I believe that people on this blog can have a decent discussion without insulting fellow bloggers. The use of such language says more about the author than those whom you wish to condemn.<Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-83323886611236444942008-12-13T08:34:00.000-05:002008-12-13T08:34:00.000-05:00To the extent that anybody gives a rat's patoot- r...To the extent that anybody gives a rat's patoot- re the discussion on whether physics applies to human systems or not- I'm with Ilargi.<BR/><BR/>As an evolutionary ecologist/behaviorist, among my other sins- someone who studies systems per se- it's my professional opinion that adding layers of complexity does not, can not, nullify previous relationships.<BR/><BR/>If gravity operates at Level OneGreenpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-31532356970741571112008-12-13T06:44:00.000-05:002008-12-13T06:44:00.000-05:00VKI think your comment is important and true.I hav...VK<BR/><BR/>I think your comment is important and true.<BR/><BR/>I have been following Gaza for a few years now. 1.5 million urban population lives under a terrible siege. Almost no fuel is coming in, trade with the outside world is almost non-existent. And hostillities are still going on. The situation in many ways dreadful. And still: no major epidemic, no "dieoff", no collapse of the social Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4921988708619968880.post-44363587979309182982008-12-13T06:33:00.000-05:002008-12-13T06:33:00.000-05:00DIYer said...economic ecosystemThis is an oxymoron...DIYer said...<BR/><BR/><I>economic ecosystem</I><BR/><BR/>This is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Economics is embedded within the ecosystem. No ecosystem, no economics. There is such a thing as first principles. Best take the time to start learning what these are.goritsashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09767556060065779629noreply@blogger.com